Subj:	TRAVELLER digest 316
Date:	95-06-13 21:47:39 EDT
From:	traveller@mpgn.com
To:	traveller@mpgn.com

From:	traveller@mpgn.com
Sender:	traveller@mpgn.com
Reply-to:	traveller@mpgn.com
To:	traveller@mpgn.com (Multiple recipients of list)
			    TRAVELLER Digest 316

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: Vampire Fleets
	by Bri <bri@teleport.com>
  2) FFS Helicopter Design
	by Lahtinen Antti Jussi <al76188@cs.tut.fi>
  3) Re: Help with FF&S Storage Battery rules
	by "Brendan O'Donovan" <Brendan@odonovan.demon.co.uk>
  4) Re: Batteries
	by lhowie@dilbert.lrmi.com (Les Howie)
  5) re: batteries - slipped a decimal.
	by lhowie@dilbert.lrmi.com (Les Howie)
  6) Specific problems with robot arm rules
	by "David A. Nelson" <34TYHPE@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU>
  7) Re: Help with FF&S Storage Battery rules
	by George Herbert <gherbert@crl.com>
  8) Gauss LCSW & CSW
	by "Brendan O'Donovan" <Brendan@odonovan.demon.co.uk>
  9) Re: Help with FF&S Storage Battery rules
	by Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jun 1995 22:57:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: Bri <bri@teleport.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Vampire Fleets
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950612224835.4093A-100000@linda.teleport.com>

> Date: Sun, 11 Jun 1995 17:09:52 -0400 (EDT)
> From: Zaidfeld <cs911408@red.ariel.cs.yorku.ca>
> To: TNE Mailing List <traveller@MPGN.COM>
> Subject: Re: Vampire Fleets
> Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950611170724.5964B-100000@green>
> Yes.  The book is quite good.  My only dislike with it is the Fer De 
> Lance Anti-Virus weapon picture.  This one is really bad.  What do you
think?
> 
>            -Shalom Zaidfeld
> ----
 Yes, the picture is pretty sad.
 But the art in the book is better then most of the art(breeds rule ;) )
 Seeing as how they have rules for it now, anyone wanna work on making a 
full cyborg?
 Ala robot but with Human brain and the life support systems for it. I 
think it would make a wonderful addition to T:NE.
 It would have to be a special character class tho, because othersie 
they'res no way a character(unless they're REALLY old) could afford to 
become one.
 But I think full cyborgs would be very popular. av50 walking tank 
carrying a Crunch Gun and he would cost a fraction of what a comparable 
combat abilitie would cost from Robots, Vehicles, Or highley trained 
humans(in the long run only), and he could eat food instead of 
electricity(small fusion reactor or fuel cell) simplifing supply.
 The bonus would be you'd be getting a _much_ smarter combat unit, with 
the abilitie to adapt(if you don't wanna use a virus robot) and you 
woulden't have to pay for the robot brain. Wich is _expensive_ and 
_extreemley_ hard to produce. Hence it would be better at lower tech levels.
just a thought.... I would like one.... Maybe Loren could 
contribuite(always wanted to work for GDW ;) )

--
bri

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jun 1995 10:03:17 +0300 (EET DST)
From: Lahtinen Antti Jussi <al76188@cs.tut.fi>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: FFS Helicopter Design
Message-ID: <199506130703.KAA24908@kaarne.cs.tut.fi>

	FFS Helicopter Design

	A while ago I wrote about the difficulties of re-crating modern
	helicopters with FFS design rules. Because the rules would not
	work correctly, I did some literature research about real-life
	helicopter design, and found the mathematical model of power
	consumption in hovering and flight.

	Complete helicopter model is very complex, and while it gives
	quite accurate power consumption values for various airspeed,
	weight, and drag combinations, it is too massive to be used
	with FFS design rules. However, the model can be used to
	pinpoint some errors in FFS.


	Design Strategy

	Helicopters can be designed using either aircraft of lift
	vehicle rules. Both rules give quite similar end results, but
	lift vehicles can be designed with armor.
	Note that page 22: Lift Vehicle Chassis Configuration table and
	page 30 Airframe table have similar values (only examined from
	different perspectives) and all Airframes can be used as Lift
	Vehicle Chassis.

	Airframes not listed in Lift Vehicle Chassis table
	Type		Volume	SA	Price	Min	Max	Eff
	Autogyro	0.005	70	1.02	40	200	0.65
	Wing-in-Ground	0.05	70	1.02	75	400	0.90

	(These airframes are not suitable for helicopters, but I use
	these values when I design PARWIG vehicles.)


	Rotors

	FFS, page 32: Rotor Assemblies lift values are too low. I could
	model only MTR and NOTAR rotors, and lift values for other
	rotor types can only be estimated.

	Type	Lift (ton/MW)
	MTR	8
	NOTAR	8.4
	TMR	10 ?
	CMR	10 ?
	X-Wing	10 ?

	I could not find enough data to check the actual weights of
	different rotor assemblies, so I use the values from the Rotor
	Assemblies table, but substituting:

	Wt: Weight in tons, per _MW output_ of power plant.
	Volume in m3 is equal to the weight of rotor. (This is the 
	actual volume of the rotor assembly. Note that parked 
	helicopter may still take large amount of hangar space, because 
	the rotor blades can be quite long.)

	Power Plants

	Power plant can be either Improved Internal Combustion Engine
	(piston engine) or Gas Turbine. Almost all modern helicopters
	use gas turbines ("turboshaft"), and piston engines are mainly
	used in radio controlled drones.
	One possible helicopter power plant is rotor tip-drive, that 
	means tip-mounted pulsejets (AZHRAE) or ramjets. Pulsejets are 
	used mainly in target-drones, and ramjets are used in TJ-5 and
	NHI Kolibrie helicopters. I am still unable to find enough 
	design data for rotor tip-drive engines.

	FFS, page 63: Chemical Power Plants table shows quite poor
	values for gas turbines. The following values are taken from
	Pratt & Whitney PT6 -series turboprops and turboshafts, and the
	values are for the whole engine installation (including gas
	generator, free power turbine, reduction gearbox and drive
	shaft).

	TL	MW	Mass	kl/hour	Name
	6	1.9	0.5	0.39	PT6A-6
	7	3.4	0.7	0.345	PT6A-42
	8	4.9	0.9	0.3	PT6A-68
	9	6.4	1.1	0.255	Estimated future model
	10	7.9	1.3	0.21	Estimated future model

	Note: values are for 1 cubic meter of engine. Original engine
	volumes (Min Vol ?) were about 0.22 m3. TL 8+ values are
	estimates based on PT6 technical evolution curves.

	Gas turbine is more suitable helicopter power plant than MHD
	generator, because gas turbine produces mechanical energy and
	MHD generator produces electrical energy.
	Magnetohydrodynamic generation of power is based on the direct
	conversion of fuel energy into electrical energy by flowing a
	heated, electrical conductive fluid or gas through a magnetic
	field. To achieve this, fuel is often doped with impurities, so
	that exhaust gas is electrically conductive, and this exhaust
	gas is piped through magnetic field. The impurities in fuel
	often make the exhaust gas highly toxic.
	Note: the MHD _turbine_ described in text in page 63 is
	completely unknown to me. As far as I know, the modern MHD
	power generators are not based on turbine technology.

	Sources:
	Jukka Raunio; Helikopteriteoria. Published by Finnish Border 
	Guard Department, 1989.
	R.W. Prouty; Helicopter Aerodynamics. PJS Publications Inc. 
	USA, 1985.
	Journal of Engineering for Gas Turbines and Power; The PT6 
	Engine: 30 Years of Gas Turbine Technology Evolution. 
	Transactions of the ASME, APRIL 1994, Vol. 116.

-- 
        Antti Lahtinen    :     Justice is Only a Wish of a Weak
        al76188@cs.tut.fi :




------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jun 1995 06:24:13 GMT
From: "Brendan O'Donovan" <Brendan@odonovan.demon.co.uk>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Help with FF&S Storage Battery rules
Message-ID: <33@odonovan.demon.co.uk>

In the message dated Monday 12, June 1995:
> shell. I can't seem to get a handle on these rules. Can anyone help me with
> this?
>   Frankly, GURPS Robots is MUCH easier to work with, as their batteries are
> rated in kilowatt hours (1 KW-h = 3,600 KW stored). This does not bode
well.
> The table in FF&S refers to output discharge per hour (for TL-12 this is
1.5
> MW). There are also rules for lower and higher discharge rates. As stated,
the
> robot requires 0.35 MW, but is this per hour? If so, then a 35 MW storage
> battery is needed, and this won't fit! Help!
> 0.25klshell
I haven't seen Vampire Fleets over here in the UK yet (has anyone?). However 
your question was about storage batteries. What you need to understand is
that 
the megawatt is a measure of power delivered per second. This means that a
50Mw 
power supply will deliver 50,000,000 joules of energy per second for as long
as 
it continues to operate, and systems requiring 50Mw of power need 50,000,000 
joules of power per second (wow! enough to boil 120 litres of water per
second, 
TNE kettles must be incredible), supplied by the 50Mw power plant. With 
batteries, the output listed is in Mw-hours. At TL12 a 1kl battery can
sustain a 
1.5Mw output for 1 hour.
In FFS you need to choose first a power supply which gives the desired
output, 
and then either add fuel, or change the battery size until the desired output
is 
reached. For a 100 hour duration battery, the output is multiplied by 0.02,
so a 
battery with a 1-hour discharge power of 17.5Mw needs to be chosen (not 35Mw,

as slow discharging batteries are more efficient). Unfortunately at TL12,
this 
has a volume of  11.66kl. Fuel cells would be more useful, at 0.46kl for the 
power plant, and 0.0875kl fuel per hour (around 9.2kl for the whole power 
plant). The only way to completely satisfy the 0.25kl requirement would be to

use TL15 fusion, with a 0.1kl power plant, and 0.0007kl fuel for 100hour 
duration, or 0.06kl for a year.

Although you may find GURPS easier, it seems to have confused you. Kilowatt 
hours are quite different to kilowatts. 1 kilowatt hour describes a battery 
which can produce 1 kilowatt for an hour, or 2 kilowatts for half an hour,
etc. 
Kilowatt hours are a measure of energy (1kWh = 3.6Mj of energy), kilowatts
are a 
measure of power.
Energy(kWh)/required power(kW)=duration(h)

I hope something here helps.
-- 
Brendan O'Donovan


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jun 1995 14:11:56 -0300
From: lhowie@dilbert.lrmi.com (Les Howie)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Batteries
Message-ID: <9506131715.AA09847@lrmi.com>

>From: "David A. Nelson" <34TYHPE@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU>
>
>I'm trying to duplicate the PR-317 robot as shown in Vampire Ships. I have
run
>into a problem in trying to figure out the volume of the batteries needed to
>power it. The robot as I have built it requires 0.35 KW of power per (hour?
>turn? What is the time increment for the power needed?) to operate. The
robot
>must have 100 hours of endurance. The batteries must fit into a 0.25
kiloliter
>shell. I can't seem to get a handle on these rules. Can anyone help me with
>this?

Having figured it out in Kilowatts, you have the power (power is energy per
unit time) -- 1 kilowatt is 1 kilojoule per second.  I don't have vampire
fleets, but assuming the tables are the same as for FF&S:

1000 hours * .35 KW = 1 hour * 350 Kw = 1 hour * .35 MW. = .35 MW-Hours

The table on FF&S page 66 is in MW per cubic meter for a battery which will
discharge in one hour, so we need a battery of .35 MW-Hours (1260 MJ)

So, assuming tech 12, that row of the table reads: MW-1.5 Mass-2 MCr-.005.

since we want .35 MW / 1.5 MW = .23 of that battery

.23 * 1 m^3 = .23 m^3
.23 * 2 tonnes = .46 tonnes = 460 Kg
.23 * .005 MCr = .00115 MCr = 1,150 Cr

(Altough I stand ready to be corrected)

>  Frankly, GURPS Robots is MUCH easier to work with, as their batteries are
>rated in kilowatt hours (1 KW-h = 3,600 KW stored).

No, thats 3600 KW-Hours stored.  Its 3600 KW released for 1 hour.  Actually,
the FF&S batteries are also rated in KW-Hours (well MW-Hours, really) --
they have just chosen an odd way to express it.

Les Howie
Senior Software Developer
Atlantic LRMI


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jun 1995 14:19:20 -0300
From: lhowie@dilbert.lrmi.com (Les Howie)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: re: batteries - slipped a decimal.
Message-ID: <9506131722.AA09927@lrmi.com>

>From: "David A. Nelson" <34TYHPE@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU>
>must have 100 hours of endurance. The batteries must fit into a 0.25
kiloliter

Sorry, I read that as 1000 hours, so the battery I specced is 10 times too
large/expensive etc.  Still fits in the .25 m^3 you have available, though.
Les Howie
Senior Software Developer
Atlantic LRMI


------------------------------

Date:         Tue, 13 Jun 95 13:22:14 EDT
From: "David A. Nelson" <34TYHPE@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Specific problems with robot arm rules
Message-ID:   <950613.133602.EDT.34TYHPE@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU>

  So far, my question about determing the characteristics of robot arms has
produced two responses: "Well, in Book 8: Robots it says..." and "Just read
the book." It appears either that not enough people know what I'm talking
about OR I wasn't clear enough about my specific difficulty.So here goes:
   Quoting VAMPIRE SHIPS, page 74, second column, 7th paragraph;
   "The agility if the arm is the percentage of [the arm] devoted to
articulation divided by 10..." No problem here; if the percentage of the
arm devoted to articulation is 40%, the AGL is 4.
   Next paragraph:
   " The strength of the arm is the total volume in liters devoted to power.
When determining the STR attribute of the robot, round this value to the
nearest whole number (but never less than 1)."
     I may answer my own question here, but let's say your robot has an arm
whose total volume is 0.25 kiloliters or 250 liters. 40% of the arm is
devoted to articulation (or 100 liters). This leaves 150 devoted to STR.
Is this the robot's STR, 150? Or is this supposed to be dvided by 10, thus
giving our robot a STR of 15? Or is it based on the percentage devoted to
STR, giving our robot a STR of 6? I beleive the STR would be 15. Thus, I
think something has been left out.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jun 1995 11:38:22 -0700
From: George Herbert <gherbert@crl.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Cc: gherbert@crl.com
Subject: Re: Help with FF&S Storage Battery rules
Message-ID: <199506131838.AA22064@mail.crl.com>


>I'm trying to duplicate the PR-317 robot as shown in Vampire Ships. I have
run
>into a problem in trying to figure out the volume of the batteries needed to
>power it. The robot as I have built it requires 0.35 KW of power per (hour?
>turn? What is the time increment for the power needed?) to operate. The
robot
>must have 100 hours of endurance. The batteries must fit into a 0.25
kiloliter
>shell. I can't seem to get a handle on these rules. Can anyone help me with
>this?
>  Frankly, GURPS Robots is MUCH easier to work with, as their batteries are
>rated in kilowatt hours (1 KW-h = 3,600 KW stored). This does not bode well.
>The table in FF&S refers to output discharge per hour (for TL-12 this is 1.5
>MW). There are also rules for lower and higher discharge rates. As stated,
the
>robot requires 0.35 MW, but is this per hour? If so, then a 35 MW storage
>battery is needed, and this won't fit! Help!

You're confusing power with energy storage...

The POWER used is 0.35 MW (I'm assuing your initial KW was mistyped).
The endurance is 100 hours; look on Fire, Fusion, and Steel (it also
may be in Vampire Fleets) at the battery table and the battery endurance
table just below it.  I believe the output multiplier for 100 hr
discharges is 0.01; so the battery's basic 1-hr output capability
would be 0.35 / 0.01 or 35 mw for one hour.  The output discharge
per (I believe it's liter of battery) of 1.5 means that you have
35 / 1.5 or 23.333 liters of battery.  Check whether that's per kl
or per liter, though.

And doublecheck whether it's 0.35 KW or 0.35 MW of power needed...
makes some difference ;-)

-george

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jun 1995 18:35:58 GMT
From: "Brendan O'Donovan" <Brendan@odonovan.demon.co.uk>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Gauss LCSW & CSW
Message-ID: <35@odonovan.demon.co.uk>

Standard disclaimer: Sorry if someone else has already done this better.

"Sometimes, even with all our technology, you realise you have limits. I knew

that the child was dying when I first saw him, seeimg far too small for his
bed. 
I began to operate within the hour, his appendicitis was severe, but I should

have been able to treat it. I don't know exactly what happened, maybe he
began 
to come out of sedation, flinched a little, maybe I'm just making excuses.
The 
blood came pouring from the nicked artery, and within seconds the child just
let 
go his weak grip on life and died. It was a mistake, just a mistake. 
We can travel the stars, but that doesn't make us perfect. 
His father didn't see it that way. All he knew was that his son had been
alive, 
until I walked in. He probably knew it wasn't my fault, but all the same he 
needed someone to blame. He'd got together a crowd of the villagers,
there must have been twenty or thirty, shouting, spitting, waving torches in
my 
face. My escort backed away from the mob nervously. I could see Gray tensing
his 
finger over the trigger of his rifle, trying to hold his fire until he had no

choice, trapped between his duty to protect me, and his duty to the bootstrap

mission. Our pilot came round the corner at that moment, he had no such 
hesitation. He drew a pistol from his jacket and sprayed the crowd with
bullets. 
None of the crowd had any visible gunshot wounds, but in moments they had all

slumped to the ground unconscious. 'Tranquiliser' he shouted by way of 
explanation, followed by 'I think we should leave now'.
As the Air Raft carried us away from the village I saw the sprawled crowd
below. 
It looked like a massacre, but even as I watched, some of them began to sit
up.
It had not been a good day, but I shuddered as I thought of the sprawled mass
of 
sleepers, and how much worse it could have been."
					Dr. Laskey - RCES field surgery

Some bootstrap missions encounter problems with native mistrust, and small 
groups of Coalition personnel may find themselves trapped by crowds of
natives. 
Use of standard ammunition and resulting civilian casualties are clearly 
unacceptable, and there are occasions when use of knockout gas is
inappropriate, 
because a fast response is needed (where there is no time to put on gas
masks), 
or because only some of the people in an area need to be subdued. With this 
problem in mind, the RCES produced the Crowd Suppression Weapon and Light
Crowd 
Suppression Weapon.
These gauss weapons shoot an extremely small caliber round (1.94mm*9.7mm) at 
high velocities. These weapons have very significant advantages over standard

arms firing Tranq rounds. The magazine sizes are much larger than a standard 
gauss weapon would allow, and recoil is much lower, allowing personnel a much

higher controllable rate of fire. The weapon is produced in two
configurations, 
a pistol for general and covert useage, and an SMG configuration for security

personnel. The weapon is manufactured at TL12, with the exception of the TL13

barrel, which is purchased from the Hivers. 

CSW (crowd suppression weapon)
TL               :12/13
Ammo             :1.94*9.7mm
Muzzle Energy    :144J (required power 288J)
Weapon Length    :51.5cm
Weapon Weight    :2.82kg loaded, 1.91kg unloaded 
Weapon Price     :937.64Cr
Magazine Weight  :0.9097kg loaded, 0.8812kg empty
Magazine Price   :2Cr empty, 4.04Cr loaded
Ammunition price :0.00456Cr Tranq
Ammunition weight:0.057g
Features         :Gyro compensator, SA stock, Telescopic sight
                                          -recoil-
Round   ROF  DamVal  Pen  Bulk  Magazine  SS  Burst  Short Range
Tranq   50     -1*   nil   3      500      1    3      30 (19)

LCSW
TL               :12/13
Ammo             :1.94*9.7mm
Muzzle Energy    :144J (required power 288J)
Weapon Length    :22.15cm
Weapon Weight    :1.39kg loaded, 1.25kg unloaded 
Weapon Price     :630.73Cr
Magazine Weight  :0.131kg loaded, 0.127kg empty
Magazine Price   :1Cr empty, 1.328Cr loaded
Ammunition price :0.00456Cr Tranq
Ammunition weight:0.057g
Features         :Gyro compensator
                                          -recoil-
Round   ROF  DamVal  Pen  Bulk  Magazine  SS  Burst  Short Range
Tranq   5/10   -1*   nil   1      72       1   1/2      7
*tranq effect 

The rules for powering down for tranq rounds (eg. range x0.6) were not
applied 
as the weapon was designed from the start to fire at non-lethal muzzle
energies.

-- 
Brendan O'Donovan


------------------------------

Date: 13 Jun 1995 18:02:21 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Help with FF&S Storage Battery rules
Message-ID: <3466657758.628639@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca>

Uh, power requirements are always time-dependent.  Power is energy divided by
time.

Batteries store energy, not power.  The power listed in FFS assumes that you
completely discharge the battery in one hour; these ratings are actually
MW-hours.  Thus, if you have a battery rated for one MW it can supply 1MW for
an hour, 0.5 MW for two hours, 2 MW for half an hour, etc.  

Note that there is a minimum time to drain a battery, which changes with tech
level.  Going faster than this could have interesting side effects.  (Lay a
_thick_ screwdriver across the terminals of your car battery for a
demonstration. :-)

------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 316
***************************


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